Motec ADL - CAN

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Robertio
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Motec ADL - CAN

Post by Robertio »

Has anyone managed to get a Syvecs ECU to provide data to a Motec ADL display? As both support CAN I'd guess it is possible, but would like confirmation it will work before I decide if I'm changing ECUs (again).

pat
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Re: Motec ADL - CAN

Post by pat »

Robertio,

I remember discussing the interfacing between the MoTeC SDL and Syvecs some time ago with a helpful chap at MoTeC. You cannot define the CAN template for an SDL, but you can for an ADL, however it turns out you can import an ADL template into an SDL, so it was actually possible in a round about way. As I understand it there is supposed to be a CAN template for the ADL to receive telemetry from Life Racing F88, the Syvecs Custom CAN is similar enough (and could be configured identical) that selecting this should "just work". I haven't tried it (no SDL or ADL) so cannot confirm for definite but the general consensus appears to be that it ought to work.

Hope this helps,

Pat.

Robertio
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Re: Motec ADL - CAN

Post by Robertio »

Thanks Pat, that's almost ;) what I wanted to hear :) If I'm heading down this path I'll be in touch, if by some miracle I instead manage to get the Motec ECU to work: give me a shout after September and I'll be happy to send down my ADL for you to play with (if you want) as the car isn't used during winter.

pat
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Re: Motec ADL - CAN

Post by pat »

Robertio,

What's the problem with the MoTeC ECU ?

As for the loan of the ADL, that might be quite good; most of our users deploy the AiM Sport MXL Strada (or Pista) or the Race Technologies DASH2, not had a chance to make an S* talk to an ADL yet, I'm sure it is possible but it would be useful to be able to offer proper instructions!

Cheers,

Pat.

Robertio
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Re: Motec ADL - CAN

Post by Robertio »

Ah, proper instructions, I do so dream of those.

The ECU wont start the car, making it (behind the car itself) my second most expensive paperweight.

There are threads on the Motec & EFI101 sites, but in summary:
Motec MLS ECU with all options (it is a cutdown M4 for just LSx and Lexus V8s).
GM LS1 (5.7l V8) with factory sensor.
New engine loom with the minimum number of sensors, cam&crank sensor wires are shielded.
Factory coils & I've refitted the factory injectors.
Engine itself has heads, cam, etc. but should start & run (albeit very leanly) on a standard factory map.
Was running on the factory ECU prior to fitting the Motec.
Regretably I hacked the factory loom to put together a prototype loom for the Motec, so can't go back.
Factory 58psi fuel pressure.
No startup map supplied, so using an LS2 map with what I believe are the necessary changes for cam&crank sensor setup.
I don't have a decent enough scope to give an accurate output of the cam & crank sensors, but below is what I get with the cheap nasty scope - at least shows that both sensors are working and that it has the normal 24 tooth trigger wheel.
No TDC mark on engine to check timing. Hopefully a piston stop will get delivered next week and I can rectify this lack of information.

Out of probably upwards of a thousand attempts to start the car (I eventually bought a massive battery for just this purpose) it has started twice. Once last year on the prototype loom, ran for a few seconds until I shut it off as the exhaust header had blown apart the last time I was out in the car and I'd forgotten about it making the car a tad loud and rough. Wouldn't restart. A few weeks back it started, ran for about 30 seconds sounding happy, then died and wouldn't restart - a splutter, splutter death, so I just figured the fueling was miles out, but nope.

Ignition and injector test are fine. If you run the ignition test after an injector test it is sometimes possible to get it to ignite the fuel and turn the engine enough that the ECU s/w says to not run diagnostics on a running engine.

All sensors return expected values. Cranking rpm is reported in the s/w as being around 110 using the big battery, 130-150 with the tiny battery (but you only get one chance with it before having to dig out the charger).

Motec support referred me back to the ECU supplier, but I am having trouble getting them to come up and look at the car. Have e-mailed Motec asking if they can run a test on the ECU if I send it to them - just in case there is a fault with it.

Wiring & Setup Word Document

Image

pat
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Re: Motec ADL - CAN

Post by pat »

Hiya Robertio!

Unfortunately the older MoTeC ECUs didn't have a SyncScope type feature, I think I once used such a feature on the M-hundred series though. The scope trace you attached looks like the 24X pattern, looks like the rising edge of the cam is nicely between two crank teeth, ergo it should be possible to support this pattern as Generic - Keyed by Single Cam on an S6... but that's not what you have right now...

The fact that the ECU is showing cranking RPM (albeit a bit slower than I would expect, but it is a big old lump and it may not turn over as quick as a Subaru engine) suggests that it is seeing the crank turn just fine, and I guess it is sync-ing up. It won't need the cam sensor for TDC because the crank has sufficient unique identifiers on it to get 360 sync anyway... whether an M4 will happily go 360 then 720 I am not sure about, but it cannot do fully sequential fuelling anyway and the benefits from fully sequential ignition are questionable in the absence of sequential injection.

You have done the injector and coil test so you know they are working *with the engine stood still*, but that doesn't mean that they will be fine either a) whilst cranking and/or b) whilst running. Cranking voltage can be an issue, as could drop-out of one or more of the +12V feeds during cranking. You could eliminate this by not cranking the car with its own battery; use a jump pack directly on the starter to crank it, that should eliminate this potential problem. If there is no difference when using external power to turn the engine then it could be a problem "whilst running", ie it may lock on great until to starts making sparks, then get upset with a bit of interference. You could easily test that with external cranking but coils unplugged (turn off the fuel pump so you don't drown it!). If it isn't affected by the presence of sparks then you're back to the three fundamentals of SI engines... air, fuel, spark.

Air is pretty obvious, if you have compression you have air. Fuel is also pretty obvious, and even if it is injected at the wrong point it will still get drawn in and burnt, the amount may be wrong of course. The presence or lack of a spark is pretty obvious, what is not is whether it is happening at the right time. Just pull out the plug from No. 1 and stick a long pencil down to plug hole, then turn the crank to see when the piston is at TDC, then paint a mark on the crank pulley. You don't need to be 100% precise, you just want to see whether the spark looks like it is somewhere in the vicinity rather than 90 or 180 degrees away. Get a timing light on it and see where your spark is happening....

The fact that it HAS run suggests that the wiring is fundamentally right (ie you've got the ignition outputs in the right order etc), there is probably just something tripping it up. Sadly without a proper SyncScope it is going to be difficult to diagnose, and I don't think your 'scope is going to cut it. I use a cheap(ish) Tektronics Digital Storage Oscilloscope when I need to look at waveforms to see if they're misbehaving, you should be able to pick up a perfectly good unit on the bay. Don't bother with older analogue 'scopes for this kind of work, and even stuff like the trusty old Tek 465B with digital storage add-on would prove limiting, I'de say entry level of Tektronix TDS210 or similar. If you want something a bit more modern then you can get a new TDS3032C for about UKP 3k (a very good reason for the SyncScope to exist in the ECU !).

Hope this helps, or at least gives you some further ideas to explore...

Pat.

Robertio
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Re: Motec ADL - CAN

Post by Robertio »

Thanks Pat :) the weekend has come around again so if the weather doesn't improve (was supposed to be going to Shakespeare County Raceway for the weekend) I'll try your suggestions. Motec person is supposed to finally be coming to see the car on Wednesday...

Robertio
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:30 pm

Re: Motec ADL - CAN

Post by Robertio »

It lives :D After the better part of a year it finally runs by moving the sync sensor input from pin 8 to pin 7. Happy and distressed in equal measure. Luckily I managed to phone my friendly Motec dealer before he left to come up and see the car.

There must be some logical reason why they would use different pins depending on whether the sensor was hall or magnetic, but off-hand I can't come up with one. Of cource it does now mean there were 2 mistakes in their supplied document on ref and sync sensor setup for an LS1 :roll: I'm also impressed it managed to run twice with no value from a required sensor :?

I'm about to be a whole lot less popular with my neighbours - after almost a year of driving standard/almost standard cars I'd forgotten how loud the white car is. Guess I'd best find a way of fitting the turbos on to quieten it down :twisted:

The offer of the ADL stands - just give me a shout during the off-season and I'll post it down Pat, thanks again for your help :) If I fall out with this ECU I'll be in touch.

pat
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Re: Motec ADL - CAN

Post by pat »

Robertio,

There are circuit differences when trying to detect VR or digital signals for rotational / speed signals. That said, it has been possible to soft-configure some ECUs for the last 15 years or so. In all fairness, if you'de accidentally wired a VR sensor to an AU input on an S6 you'de be in no better a position, albeit the SyncScope would have reduced your debug time to about 30 seconds, LOL. On the S8 all 16 general purpose inputs can be soft-configured to any input configuration, so your fix-time would have been about 45 seconds :D I believe that the later M-hundred ECUs are a little more flexible, which makes it all the more puzzling why they didn't base the MLS on an M-hundred series ECU rather than the M4.

Cheers,

Pat.

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